She’s a Feminist. Then why doesn’t she pay the bill?

When I date someone for the first time, two things inevitably happen.

1. The food is served, and then the bill is called for. The waiter who knows nothing about Feminism or Chauvinism, will come and give the bill to me. If I am dressed shabbily, he will give it to the girl. And precisely at that moment, I decide whether I will date the person again.

2. I am always called an asshole after that first date.

This is something that has always bugged me no end. I see these girls who bash men at the drop of a hat, talking of male hegemony, male gaze, gender inequality, and other bra-burning feminist ideas, and when the bill appears, there is a magical transformation. The fiery tiger becomes a whimpering, simpering, eyelashes batting, cute little cat.

And I would rather be called an asshole than date that person again.

Of all the characteristics one is supposed to have in a relationship, I find chivalry the most stupid.

Why do I need to open the door for a girl to show her that I care for her? Why do I need to pay her bill to prove that I care?

I mean, I do understand there is a way to behave around a lady. I am not going to chew paan and spit near her feet. But do I have to go all the way to open the door for her?

Out of curiosity, I looked up the word chivalry, and this is what I found.

The word has its origins to the era before the 15th century, where men were supposed to protect the weak and the defenceless. So when someone talks about chivalry in the 21st century, I feel like banging their head into a plate of hot sambar vada and making them pay the bill for it.

Of course, one would argue that the literal meaning of the word would have changed over the ages. It has, but only subtly. If you expect chivalry from men, why blame the men who expect women to only cook?

And what is most shocking is that most of these are educated, well-read women. Women who know the meaning of terms like male-gaze, and male hegemony.

A few months back, we had gone to a club. Again, two of the girls in the group were 21st century bullshitters. When it was time to pay the entry fee, they turned away. When it was time for the bill, they ran away. As simple as that. Isn’t this merely taking advantage of the fact that most men would  consider it infradig to ask a woman to repay an amount? How different are you, then, from the dowry-accepting, wife-beating asshole on the street?

Luckily for me, I have always been with women who are fiercely independent. To the extent that I have lived off them during my jobless, hopeless, and penniless days. Which is why I still have respect for them, even if I am not with them today.

I find it amusing when guys bitch about how much money they spend on their girlfriends. If you are dating a person without any self-respect, you shouldn’t be complaining about it in the first place. It is as much your fault as hers.

And girls, if you really want our respect, and really want to be treated as equal, how about splitting the bill the next time you eat out?

 

 

EDIT: 

I got a lot of shit for this post, and while I could have simply edited the offensive bits, that would have been the easy way out.

For all those who got offended by it, I am sorry. Forgive me for not being able to convey my point accurately. Also, I went overboard with the comparison with rapists, so please pardon that too. My point, however, was that the rapist and the chauvinist subscribe to the same school of thought. The former thinks he needs to put the woman in her place, the latter believes that there is a place that woman need to be placed at.

Also, let me put it this way. Imagine if you were a guy, would you go on a date if you had no money?

Now, how about if you were a girl? Would it be possible for the date to take place?

Thanks!

57 thoughts on “She’s a Feminist. Then why doesn’t she pay the bill?

  1. I feel very disappointed with this post Hriday! I am a staunch feminist, the non-bra burning type, and I love it when my friend/father/boyfriend/random guy i met 2 mins ago opens a door for me…brings a smile to my face – not because i could not have used my hands to do so…but because it just goes towards men making you feel a little “special”, if nothing else!

    Women who don’t pay bills/sponge off on the boyfriend’s money are not cheap “women” they are cheap human beings…this isnt a gender issue it is a character issue! Or probably he does have the extra cash and she doesnt…or maybe she lets him pay all the bills because she is saving for that fantastic surprise gift…you never know! People sponging off each other is just sad – regardless of whether it is a woman/man. I have met equal number of men – friends, who look the other way if the bill is too steep or pretend to make that very “important” phone call!

    And how different is that dowry-demanding/accepting, wife-beating asshole you ask me? Very. Dont even go there. Most men are fully aware they are being taken for a ride…they dont care coz they are “getting some”. These men are also the ones who will crib after the relationship is over! So to compare physical abuse with a woman who’s trying to take you for a ride – get a perspective and then some, sweetie!

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    1. Honey you stole my words :)…Reading this post I was thinking exactly the same… men do run away when the bill comes… i know many of my female friends who pay the bill most of the times when their boyfriends just come up with stupid excuses to run away from paying. And opening a door or pulling a chair is not something girls expect..its something that makes them feel special. And how many men do we know who don’t even acknowledge the fact that their wife is making their house a “home” while working and earning too.. I never believed women are equal to men, we are physically weak and always on an emotional roller coaster ride.. but we are much more mannered and know what is right… well most of the times 🙂

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      1. Thank you! And true- opening doors is such a pain in the ass but being ‘womanly’ towards our boyfriends is a duty that we are bound by! Get off the blogs, and lets start cleaning! :p

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    2. ” I am a staunch feminist, the non-bra burning type, and I love it when my friend/father/boyfriend/random guy i met 2 mins ago opens a door for me…”

      Isn’t feminism supposed to be AGAINST gender inequality, against one gender being given preferential treatment based on their chromosomes? Why should men be the one to open the doors for women more than vice-versa?

      Answer: what you are describing is anti-feminism/anti-equality.

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      1. i really hate posting on blogs but this guy is a clear misogynist. i agree with the first comment. it makes sense more or less. how can u equate some money, a bill not picked up for whatever reason, as being a justification for wife beating, sexual harrassment and patriarchy. this is clearly what a small, pea brained women hater would spew off. these idiots who have no idea about the decades long discourse about feminist theory have no fucking authority to bash anyone’s feminist ideals because they themselves dont know shit. really dumb article. i got here because i read that how to pretend to be intellectual article. heartranjan? hahaha, whatever u are, try to use some of ur own tips and shut up for a while when u know nothing. and are u assuming all girls are intellectuals or they dont need to be cause they’re only good for dowry and cooking? pathetic that u are blind to half the polpulation..

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      2. There should never be any abuse of anyone, male or female. I think everyone is clear on that, or should be. Anyone who is not, supports crime. However, if one opposes sexism, they oppose it whether it benefits them or not. Hence, a true feminist would not demand or even expect to be treated with any more (or less) courtesy and deference than a man would. That’s how gender equality works. If one wants to be believed and taken seriously as being for gender equality, they would be for gender equality, no matter who convenient it might be to support inequality.

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    3. Sweetie it has become a marketing strategy to project men as being heinous. And asking “”the ONLY ONE FAVOR from girls”” image. Image of beating a wife, or dowry deamanding is another way to brand FEMINISM. And when FEMINISM comes then comes ANTI MALE sentiment.
      If you are smart enough or have a smart boyfriend who will surely help you out comparing a stitistics where FALSE dowry case being filed by women against MEN. Or calling a MEN a rapist is very easy. or even filing a case is even easier nowadays for wmoen. There is very thin line between feminism and ANTI male popagation. FIND your line sweetie.

      LASTLY i am feminist supporter coz its a feminist world out there. But in very subtle way.

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    4. Like most things subtle, feminist hypocrisy works at a sub-conscious level. Take for example this “staunch feminist” gets to feel “a little special” when a male holds the door for her, and not because she cannot – just like that. Hmm, sounds like a valid argument, but then it hits you – why does it have to be a male – why doesn’t any person (females included) holding the door give her the same fuzzy feeling inside?

      “isnt a gender issue it is a character issue” – sure it is a character issue, which is displayed by mostly, umm, females? Coincidence? It’s like a saying that Indian politicians are not corrupt because anybody can be corrupt not just politicians. I really feel for you sweetie, 99% of the girls out there is giving the rest like you a bad name.

      And then, when the female is not paying, is she saving up for the big gift? Maybe, maybe not. When the male pays up, is he the perv trying to get some? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe she is just broke and her brother is trying to get her back on her feet. Or maybe she is a prostitute and the expensive dinner was part of the deal. Or maybe you are just trying to digress from the author’s point. Thought-experiments will lead us nowhere. So can we stop over-analyzing possibilities and just say if guys have to take the flak for being probable perverts, then girls who stare away when the bill/check is presented should not act butt-hurt when they are called out on it. Deal?

      Somebody needs to get a perspective for sure – and that should be you.

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  2. I too am annoyed when women—not all women, of course—want all the little perks and comforts of subservience while wanting to be liberated. It’s hypocritical. It’s okay to open doors and pull out chairs for women, but you can’t expect it. And worst, you can’t hold it against a guy if he doesn’t do it. As for picking up the check, I’m glad that those women who want only to be taken care of make their desires obvious. That way, men can decide not to date such women.
    Nice post.

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  3. Personally, I would not compare these girls with the dowry accepting/wife beating asshole. The latter is a criminal or you can say not even a human. You can always choose to (shamelessly) ask them to pay up the bills. And about saving for a big present, sorry, that can not be an excuse.
    Interesting post anyway. (I took the liberty to share the link on my wall).

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  4. I agree about the going Dutch part, it keeps things simple. But opening the door for a date is just being a gentleman, isn’t it? But of course, proof of care isn’t required in a relation. I’m guessing your dates might have said stuff like this… “If you are not paying the bill means you don’t care for me?” Then it’s good you don’t date them again 😀

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  5. @Mitasha: …”or maybe she lets him pay all the bills because she is saving for that fantastic surprise gift…”.
    ^ Lol. Really? That’s your defence? See I get the idea that you have a lamer version of the brocode going on or something that instigates you to come up with explanations on behalf of your gender. What i do not get is the ‘perspective’ issue. Opening a door/pulling out a chair makes you all feel special eh? The simple problem I’ve found with females is that they do not know what they want. Or they know too well what they want. While the femine gender is like a potpurri of emotions and wants, what makes it difficult for guys is the remarkable amount of hypocrisy your kind shows. Example: Should girls be allowed to roam around and party at nights?
    Answer: Of course yes!
    Extension of question: Aren’t women physically weaker than men? Will they be able to defend themselves from some predator?
    Answer: They shouldn’t have to! We need a society where men and women are equals. Not just that, we need a society where men are civilized and respect women for who they are.
    Question: So are men and women equals? Can they put equal efforts in EVERY aspect? Physically? Mentally? Psychologically? Should men and women sports have equal prize money?

    Is there any tangible explanation to these questions? There isn’t. The day women start accepting that they are weaker in some respects and men accept that females command power in others, it’ll be better. It’s a gender power game. Period. So don’t try and defend something that we all inherently know is untenable.

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    1. That was an insight. Not a defence. You see, im not answerable to random strangers and therefore hv no reason to be defensive.

      The blogger says these are observations, nt an autobiographic account, which is why there cn be many reasons. Perhaps its best to enjoy that dinner without peeping into other tables to see who is paying the bill.
      remember, that ‘its nt our business’!

      And about the long long explanation of accepting who is weaker, why we should/should not stay out late at night, im not bothered about how you feel! Im sure you have enough women in your life to tolerate your chauvinism! And the next time, how bout we start telling our moms to cough up for that bill nxt time eh?

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        1. No, you fucking moron!!

          You clearly don’t get the point.

          I do admit that I went a little overboard with the comparison with rapists. But my point is that all of this stems from an extreme sense of chivalry and machismo. Also, it was a crib against girls (many of whom I know to be feminists) who would happily not pay. If you are not in their vicinity, good for you.

          I am a guy. So when I have to go on a date, it is kind of a given that I have to pay the bill. Very rarely do I see a woman agree to split the tab. When I ask them to, the response I get is – “Ah! Chivalry is dead.”

          About your rant that I am bashing feministic ideas, well, here is the deal. All of you people who are ranting about feminism, dont even understand that the feminism that you soak up with so much pride, is a product of feminism in other countries. You must have the brains of a fucking female anteater if you believe the same morals and ideals would work in a country like this. Which just further proves my point that India needs a different version of feminism that is more in tune with our country. So, I am sorry to break it to you, dear angel, those lofty feministic ideas you carry in your head, they don’t amount to shit.

          And oh, your ‘hahahahaha, this guy is a rapist’ comment smacks of an education that ended in Grade 5. Doesn’t make you seem smarter, nor does it prove your point further.

          And yes, please pay the bill when you go out on a date next time. You’d have done your sisterhood some help.

          I feel so sorry. Apparently this is the only time you commented on a blog, and you succeeded in making an ass of yourself. Ha!

          On 10 May 2013 12:21, Heartranjan's Blog

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          1. I love the blog post, but I love this reply of yours a little more, heartranjan.

            The only thing I know about Holland is that Going Dutch is a great idea to keep life simple. And it seems to concur with the idea of women liberation. ‘Cause by going Ducth the woman is not obliged towards the guy nor does she owe him any favours, which she may not want to repay in kind.

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  6. Interesting article. Interesting comments…completely agree with Mitasha.
    Personally i am disappointed in this post and this perspective of yours. I read through all your posts over a week’s time, and found them insightful, delightful and thankfully free from gender biases.
    This post is at complete variance to the others. I find it stupid of you( I guess the posts leading upto this had led me to that expectation of humorous intelligence) to compare a sponger to a wife beating dowry accepting coward. If you believe you are being sponged
    Being a female and a feminist (but not the bra-burning-hating-existence-of-men type), I personally like to go Dutch and often enough have ended up feeding many boyfriends/guy friends quite many dinners/lunches. The expectation of a lady(emphasis supplied) from a gentleman(ditto) to show certain curtsies is what makes a relationship special, according to me(and a certain section of females). There are some who sponge, some who would burn you to the ground and term you a Male Chauvinist Pig if you even dare to presume to be in a position (financially as well as emotionally) to be paying their bills and then there are some like me who think that bring money into a relationship’s equation destroys the sweet fundamentality of it. The principle should ideally be that whoever has the means should pay for it at that point of time.
    PS1: Saving up for a gift is not B.S. A lot of women are smart enough to save up 10 1K notes (equivalent to movie tickets for 2/a dinner) to buy a blackberry for their boyfriends.
    PS2: This post could have been written by a woman as well…And the title would have gone: “He’s a man. Then why doesn’t he pay the bill?” …Enough of male spongers out there who “want some” and don’t want to pay the bills either. So it gets balanced out, eh?
    PS3: Are you a feminist as well, to the extent that you don’t like paying bills for your girl?

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  7. Although I dont agree with everything thats in this post, I enjoyed reading it. I found it to be entertaining and innocent.
    For me, here is where the unintentional hypocrisy creeped in. Feminism has its roots in the ideology of being equal to men. Expecting men to treat them equal is something that lines up categorically under rationalism. Chivalry on the other hand, originates from a place which has been fed since the childhood of many a straight female, with kitchen sets and barbie dolls, not to mention, those numerous romantic flicks and novels which help them form that that inevitable question, if at all – is he the one? Chivalry is expected from That Man, not men. To state the obvious, this would not be categorized under rationalism. And if it did, its probably because it ended up as an arranged marriage.

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  8. most men earn twice as much as the women doing the same job. so pay. because she’s doing the same amount of work as you and being payed less money and, she needs to spend money to look good, probably twice as much as you. that’s affirmative action, deal with it 😛

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    1. Dating, and even marriage, are based on some expectations. A guy courting a girl is one of them. It’s like foreplay. Girls expect it more than guys. If a guy isn’t tuned into that, chances are, in a lot of ways, he isn’t tuned in emotionally to the girl either.

      One of the ways to court a girl is to pay for a date. On the other hand, if you have found some other, acceptable, way of courting the girl, that does not involve spending money, than more power to you. If not, I’d go the conventional route and pay for the date.

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    2. If you expect gender role tradition, that’s fine. Just understand that it comes as a package. As long as she’s in charge of domestic engineering, cooking, cleaning, and bringing me my plate, and taking it away when I’m done.

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  9. Ouch. Wow. I’d not go as far as to say that I’m disappointed, but like some other people said, I’ve been through this blog and I didn’t expect to read some of the old sexist nonsense as arguments here. Yeah, it sucks that men have to pay too, and yes, feminists can be as hypocritical as human beings of any other group. Funny how feminists are the ones who get the most flak for this though. But seriously, the wife-beating dowry-grabbing bit was a little too much, don’t you think? Bottom line is, as a woman with a strong sense of self-respect, I’d want to pay for myself regardless of whether I’m with a boyfriend, a girlfriend, a male friend, a female friend, a relative whatever. But that’s me and the way you present the issue is way too simplistic. Also, yes, did you think about the fact that women don’t get paid as much as men for doing the same work simply because they’re women? So how about we rectify that before bitching about the bill? I’m also interested to note that this is one of the very few articles where you’ve not replied to a single comment.

    “I see these girls who bash men at the drop of a hat, talking of male hegemony, male gaze, gender inequality, and other bra-burning feminist ideas, and when the bill appears, there is a magical transformation.” Feminist bash much? If you find all those perfectly valid ideas of male hegemony and male gaze somehow offensive as your term “bra-burning feminist” implies, congrats, it looks like you’re a chauvinist. (Oh and if a woman wants to burn her fucking bra, she fucking well can without asking for approval from men who have neither breasts nor the social stigma around not wearing a bra.) Like one other commentor, I’d rather fallen in love with this blog so far for its lack of sexism. I even assumed you were that rarest of rare creatures, the Indian male blogger with feminist leanings. Apparently not. Sigh.

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    1. “Also, yes, did you think about the fact that women don’t get paid as much as men for doing the same work simply because they’re women?”

      That is a myth, at least in the United States. I don’t know about India.

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      1. “That is a myth, at least in the United States.” Oh the US has achieved equal pay? That’s all hunky dory then. Doesn’t really matter that India has one of the lowest rankings in the WORLD in terms of gender equality, including equal pay, education, safety and access to health-care (according to the 2010 Global Gender Gap Report.)

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  10. I agree with much of what you say. And disagree with even more. Sorry 😀

    You see, as many have pointed out, you’re mixing up categories. Not all women are feminists, neither are all women wet-sponges-around-monetary-transactions. And of the inverse set of the above sets, a small fraction is the fake feminist who likes holding on to her money a little too much.

    Still, to them, this is a more or less valid post.

    But gestures like holding the door open, or holding out a chair, these are common courtesies. Politeness. And they apply to all, not just men to women. I would just as easily hold the door open to a man as a woman, because it is a sign of respect.

    Only thing is, here in India, most of us are polite only around women, because we hope to get some. Hence the confusion with chivalry.

    Still, well written.

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  11. I constantly hate this tirade against feminism. Have you even done any gender studies class? “I hate feminists! They want equality, yet expect men to pay bills!” It’s a lazy argument.

    The women who bash men, and then expect you to pay the bills are not feminists – they’re just lazy people, who find it convenient to be misandric to make themselves look intellectual. Immature. It’s not a gender problem, it’s a personal problem: that you met women who were like this. This is the same as saying: All men are pigs! And I’m basing this view on the fact that my boyfriend just broke up with me via a text message!

    Opening doors is not something women expect from men, it’s something that is considered polite. I always hold the door open for the person behind me, no matter who it is. Slamming a door on someone’s face is considered incredibly rude – doesn’t matter what gender.

    And I always split the bill 🙂

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    1. “Opening doors is not something women expect from men, it’s something that is considered polite. I always hold the door open for the person behind me, no matter who it is. Slamming a door on someone’s face is considered incredibly rude – doesn’t matter what gender.”

      So, if they arrive at the door together and he routinely goes in first and then hands the door to her to follow, is that SLAMMING the door in someone’s face, or just going in first?

      A true feminist would have no problem with that.

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  12. I am sorry about your experiences Bro, I always offer to pay sometimes the entire bill, trust me I have met guys who dont even offer, nor they offer to pay even half…..I have met men on the other side of fence…so u can stop generalizing!! Infact I have met men who cannot handle independent women, It take loads of guts from the guy’s end to handle such independent women who are not afraid of expressing their feelings before the guy does. Indian men will require another century to grow up… sad but true.

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  13. I was SO intent on writing about this two years ago, a good gazillion arguments, some hundred mock break-ups(*sigh*, “how can you be so rude, insensitive and sexist? You don’t even respect women!?”) later, I simply realised this was a lost cause.

    1. People who realise this and voice their opinions.
    Get misinterpreted, blown out of proportion and shoved off as sexist hooligans who deserve public execution.

    2. People who realise it.
    Either the society scares them into shutting up, or they simply give up hope. The final alternative being they know its true but will never actually do anything about it.

    3. The dumb.
    Well they’re dumb, they dont even think about it.

    Thanks for voicing my opinion though, I realise exactly what you want to say, couldn’t agree more.

    Oh and I’m pro-feminism, I dont hate women, I simply want equality to be pervasive.

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  14. TO AL THE MEN who realized this after reading the article…..its a women world believe it or not. LEt us put asaide the poor or small town INDIA. And look into the DEVELOPED or urban INDIA. MALE hatered is being propagated in name of female empowerment. LAW is already stringent against males.

    SO realize this and start working on it. A small analogy is the reservation bill debate, whre though it is necesary for the INDIA , the only wrong question is the actual people who are using it.

    SO in india though female laws are already there and new made eah day ,,,just think who all are using the law.

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  15. I landed up here because of the post on faking being an intellectual (legit funny). I have very mixed responses to this tirade. As someone pointed out before me, you seem to characterise valid feminist concepts and constructs as something only hysterical bra-burners would bandy about. That’s sexist. And then there’s this paragraph from your comment:

    “About your rant that I am bashing feministic ideas, well, here is the deal. All of you people who are ranting about feminism, dont even understand that the feminism that you soak up with so much pride, is a product of feminism in other countries. You must have the brains of a fucking female anteater if you believe the same morals and ideals would work in a country like this. Which just further proves my point that India needs a different version of feminism that is more in tune with our country. So, I am sorry to break it to you, dear angel, those lofty feministic ideas you carry in your head, they don’t amount to shit.”

    Uh…the whole ‘brains of a…FEMALE anteater’ rubbed me the wrong way. I am sure you can appreciate why, given the previous two sentences. And you’ve basically ignored the complete history of Indian feminism and the decades of struggle that continues in a bid to secure absolute equality for the women in this country (based on which “morals and ideals” exactly? The ones where we are free to do whatever we like?). You also rather condescendingly told us that this legitimate demand that women in other countries have long been granted (“lofty”, is it, to want to be treated as an individual?) would “amount to shit” so we may as well give up trying and shut up like good little girls and let the men do the real work of deciding which rights are appropriate for us. What you did is basically mansplain. And that’s not very feminist.

    I understand that you have a problem with pseudo-feminists (as do all of us real feminists) but the tone of your piece and then this comment rubbed me the wrong way. I have a problem dating because most of the men I meet are secretly sexist. These are, in your words, “educated, well-read” men who will watch the news and have opinions. Who then say stuff like “yeah, but men can’t be controlled na, so better girls stay safe at home” and then expect me to continue a conversation with them. The pseudo-feminist and the secret sexist are two sides of the same coin – misguided, ill-socialised young people who live in a patriarchal culture that has indoctrinated them with some warped notions of entitlement.

    Of course, the men still have most of the power and some of the commentators above who insist that “these days in metros, feminism has become anti-male” and “male hatred=female empowerment”. I just want to ask: how has society become anti-male? Which rights do you feel you are unable to exercise, which freedoms are you unable to enjoy because of feminism? How do women doing the same things as you prevent you from doing them? Also, quick experiment: just replace ‘women/females’ with ‘Dalits’, ‘men/males’ with ‘Brahmins’ and ‘gender’ with ‘caste’. Then go have a public argument.

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    1. You’re right. I did go overboard with the female anteater bit. But I was getting tired of saying the same thing over and over again. Forget the theories, the deconstruction, history of the struggle. Go out in the streets and beyond the universities and you’ll find that it is OK for a girl not to pay the bill. I dont mean it should be (which is why I wrote this post), but it is not expected of girls to pay.

      I’m glad you pointed out the bit about Indian feminism. My criticism of Indian feminism is that is limited to certain spaces. Why hasn’t feminism crept into the national consciousness? Why hasn’t feminism penetrated the mainstream? Films, television, books, the internet?

      Dont you think with our countless cultures, and the wide vista of people, we need a feministic discourse of our own?

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    2. And oh, if you took offence to me calling her a female anteater, you should read what she had to say about me. Apart from calling me a rapist, that is.

      But I am sure that’s ok, right? She’s a woman and all? So she’s just expressing her anger and frustration. It is in line with the state of the women of the country, and reflect the decades of feministic struggle in the country.

      I, meanwhile, was just being your friendly neighbourhood sexist asshole.

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      1. I don’t know if the person who commented was a girl. I don’t think s/he calling you a rapist was acceptable but since this is the internet, I imagine trolling is par for the course in the comments section. You, as someone who is a non-troll trying to have real conversations with people, still shouldn’t have used the phrase ‘female’ anteater when ‘anteater’ alone would have sufficed.

        I’ve engaged with you quite reasonably I think, so to aim that strange brand of sarcasm at me is quite unjust. I did not call you a sexist asshole at any point and did not deny the existence of pseudo-feminists. But I’m beginning to think that perhaps this is the problem: the assumption that anyone defending feminism (and aren’t you also a feminist?) is a man-hating female chauvinist. But that’s a different and longer discussion so I won’t get into it.

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        1. I wouldn’t jump into conclusion that anyone who argues with me is a man-hater.

          Also, I have said enough on the subject. There isn’t anything much I can say right now without feeling old and senile.

          I wasn’t expecting you to reply. But thanks for taking your time out.

          On 14 May 2013 16:43, Heartranjan's Blog

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  16. The implication that we should temporarily forget about all the conceptual frameworks and tools that are necessary to weaken patriarchial ideology and a revolution will magically happen on the streets is naive. I do agree that the conversation about gender (or indeed social) justice cannot be confined to elite pockets of the academy but the reasons why that is so is not the fault of feminism, rather it is the outcome of a male-dominated mainstream culture that will resist the advent of a dialogue about equal rights in the public sphere.

    While I get the point you’re trying to make, I am uncomfortable with the suggestion that women not paying the bill is the biggest problem of inequality you see around you. I mean, doesn’t this sentence: ‘Go out in the streets and beyond the universities and you’ll find that it is OK for a girl not to pay the bill.’ sound absurd to you? If you go out beyond universities, you’ll find girls barely have the agency to exist the way they want to, much less cater to the hurt feelings of men who want to split the bill. It’s not that I don’t agree that women shouldn’t harp on about equal rights and then expect the guy to foot the bill, it’s that the way you have phrased and positioned the argument makes it seem as if poor men nationwide are being oppressed by this tendency. It’s hypocritical, sure, and you have every right to call such a girl out on her hypocrisy, explain how anti-feminist this is, refuse to pay and/or leave, but to spin this into a tragedy of men’s rights (the right to not pay the bill) being violated is unfair. It’s a first world problem and can be solved by men making expectations clear…after all, the ritual of dating itself has a history of being mired in sexist codes, wherein men wine and dine and women put out.

    Your criticism of Indian feminism as being confined to certain spaces is misplaced. You should be criticising the hegemonic masculinist culture we live in that refuses to recognises female experience as valid. I mean blaming feminism for not being pervasive enough is like blaming the victim – “how dare you not be more popular?”. Why would the status quo embrace a doctrine that divests them of their dominance? As long as people keep reading Chetan Bhagat and watching Katrina Kaif take her clothes off, the economic impetus for perpetuating sexism remains intact (yay cultural-indistrial complex!). In countries where feminism has managed to make its mark in so-called mainstream culture, the political, social and everyday realities of women’s lives are also significantly different from Indian women’s lives. We didn’t even have a proper anti-rape law till a few months ago. D’oh!

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    1. All your points are valid.

      How about we bring in some context here? How many people in India do you think have access to internet, and the time to read and comment on blogs? A small population, right? Among those, how many would read my blog? I’m assuming an urban, educated, small number.

      So they are my audience, clearly. I’m only pointing out the irony of the situation. They are part of the same circles where feminism is talked about. An audience who go out on dates.

      It has nothing to do with the state of women in the country, or the history of feminism in India.

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      1. Yes, I appreciate there is a context. And there is an even larger context in which this scenario plays out, which has everything to do with the state of women in the country, or the history of feminism in India (and you used the word in your post and later brought it up in a comment, not me, thus automatically opening up any discussion to an examination of the movement). One can’t pretend that a particular genre of social occurrence or phenomenon, just because it pertains to a small group of presumably privileged people, has no relation whatsoever to the larger regime of power dynamics that it’s obviously located in and caused by.

        People reading your blog, a minority though they may be, operate in a wider society. That many of them may identify as feminists and go on dates doesn’t change the fact that they are also products of a still-patriarchal system where the rules are ever-changing and confusing for everyone. I repeat that I agree with your right to have a problem with pseudo-feminists, just the way that you spoke about it didn’t sit well with me and I expressed that opinion. Cheers.

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        1. You’re right. I was a little assholic in the way I stated stuff.

          I understand that one needs to put in an effort to comment here. I’m glad you took the time out for a discussion.

          Cheers!

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    2. I like this comment the most because I see a genuine concern to address and root-cause the situation rather than immature defenses and name-calling. Discussions like this unite well-meaners and something good may come out of it eventually.

      Talking about good, according to you, what baby-steps can be taken by regular people in their day-to-day lives to solve the problems in our society that you mentioned?

      On a lighter note, you should not get too over-analytical of the author’s post. First, like the author replied, his context is narrower than what you assumed. But most importantly, IMO, for a comedy to be popular, it has to be borderline offensive and needs to tread on the grey areas. Because otherwise, it’s not interesting or thought-provoking enough. Louis CK has a nice bit on this on YouTube.
      Cheers.

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      1. Thanks for agreeing with the spirit of the post. I didn’t intend to attack the author but it’s completely appropriate to express dissent with his way of articulating his point of view. You know, about your last paragraph: I often have this discussion with people. “It’s a joke” isn’t really a valid defence when it’s aimed at a disenfranchised group. Great comedy is about wresting power back from the dominant group, not affirming it. Racist, sexist and homophobic jokes (not that the author of this blog is any of those things or has cracked those…but this particular piece was in the vein of being a somewhat sexist rant) are really lazy and unfunny because they don’t challenge the status quo, they pander to it. I agree with you that “for a comedy to be popular, it has to be borderline offensive and needs to tread on the grey areas” but at the expense of the oppressive elite, not the ones being oppressed. Else, you have a lot of lazy white male comedians walking about with the notion that they’re being “radical” by “pissing everyone off” when actually they’re only taking potshots at groups that have *always* been at the receiving end of mockery *cough* Seth McFarlane *cough*. I like Louis C.K. though I did have a major problem with him defending Daniel Tosh’s rape joke. It’s easy to say “I mock everyone equally” when you’re part of a community that isn’t ever mocked.

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  17. I can understand your anguish on doling cash out as inflation has hiked up the cost of dates . In an urban milieu where one goes out on date with a girl belonging to top 5% of economic strata who loves highlighting the plight of remaining 95 % over expensive cocktails and 3 course meals , one does make an effort to understand the feminism and its socio-economic implications for urban indian men. But, then there are few good reasons why a girl expects you to pay for the dates :

    1. She is going to sleep with you if you can charm her out enough to lead to sack. Unless you have smoldering hot looks or a pretty smooth talker, she needs a reason to sleep with you and that may well be that you made her feel special atleast for that one evening.

    2. She is taking you for a ride . The only way to spot the difference here is if you have already paid couple of times without even crossing first base. If thats the case then move over from karmnaye vadhika raste to desire is root cause of suffering and stop making fool out of yourself.

    3. You have bored her to death on first date and she has not been able to sneak out quickly enough. obviously, she does need some compensation for that..

    4. She is an independent woman who has been in casual relationship with you and now she is moving you up a pedestal by letting you pay . You may feel happy if you really want something longer or might be really worried if you were happy with the friend with benefit status.

    5.The best one when you are in love and you want to feed her out of your hands and take her out as your cullinary skills do not go beyond tea,eggs and maggi.

    So, feminism has nothing to do with who will pick up the bill for talks of that for an urban woman is almost as hogwash as indian businessman blaming corruption in government and bureaucracy for their plight. I may be wrong but your annoyance with picking up bills tells me that you are a victim of case 2/case 3 and hence its justified.

    PS : On holding the doors, i firmly believe that every one should hold it for person walking behind you as that is just acknowledging the presence of other person. Clearly respecting humanity is something which indian men and women have not learnt yet.

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  18. Such intense comments are rather funny, I would say, having met myself quite a lot of times such people (both girls and guys) who shy away at the billing table, at the precise moment as though they were waiting for it to happen. The topic doesn’t particularly have to deal with feminists, but I cannot help but partly agree with the article that its usually the girls who don’t end up paying. Its more of a socially accepted norm everywhere. Even if someone chooses to disagree on that, that would just be because of their subconsciously inflated stubbornness to prove a meaningless point. Neither is talking about Indian feminism and humanity of much relevant to the post because its only a fucking bill and who cares who opens the doors for anyone as long as they can both pass through the door safely.

    And one can coldly ignore the ‘rapist’ comment because it just too surreal to interpret.

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  19. At last I know I am not the only the one who feels the same. While you might have received a lot of hate replies but I truly support the idea brought up by this post that in the upcoming era of gender equality there are an equal amount of things/ideas which needs to be changed not only from a man’s perspective but also from a woman’s.

    And I agree holding doors should be a common courtesy rather than an act of chivalry.

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  20. Woah. The world is teeming with idiots and they dont even know it. But the explanation will be so looong… and i am at work.. so i will second Mitasha when she says she doesnt care about what anybody else thinks.. (although commenting on something someone else thinks is fine, i guess 😛 ) I completely agree with Ranjan here. And I personally dont think that He went overboard while comparing women who subject themselves to gender bias with wife beaters. Its different manifestations of the same thought.

    The problem, as we witnessed in the whole brouhaha with Deepika’s cleavage pics in TOI recently, is of complication. It isnt a simple yes/no question. Gender bias is so inherent in our upbringing that even educated women arent realizing that its beneath them to feel special when a man does something for them. its all right in relationships, of course but even strangers??

    but then, the flip side is, that men and women, i think though i am not completely sure, arent the same. They should be treated at par of course, but shouldnt be forced to act in the same way may be? so if a woman feels special while men fawn over her, is she just being herself? or is she just happy at others’ expense? If she is just being herself, then she shouldnt be forced to act like men. But then, this difference of treatment, and “women are different” argument, how far can this be taken?? “women are usually irrational” is this a sexist statement or just plain fact? if it’s sexist then “women are usually nicer than men, more well rounded, better EQ,etc” is this a sexist statement?

    lets engage in a thought experiment, so if a girl wears something which shows off her cleavage, men of course arent supposed to feel offended or anything, cos its her body and she can do whatever she bloody well pleases with it. But then men arent supposed to stare too, cos thats lascivious and eve-teasing. But men cant avert their gaze and maybe look the other way while talking, saying “i cant look at you as long as those are on display” because well, thats hating a woman’s body. Are men supposed to feel turned on at the display of cleavage? most men i know, do. But then, isnt that treating the woman as a sex object?

    there are no answers, as far as i can tell. Gender studies is a subject taught in many universities worldwide. There are bound to be some free online courses on it too. may be we all should study it to see if there’s a solution which is a win win for both sides. Or is there only one side?

    Haters gonna hate and idiots dont know that they are.. but kudos to you Ranjan, for speaking your mind and holding firm in face of the inevitable self-righteous onslaught. You Rock “man”! 😛

    PS : thousand points for the argument that “may be she is saving up for that special gift”!!!

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